Terrorism Bill — Possession for terrorist purposes. — 15 Mar 2000

Patrick McLoughlin MP, West Derbyshire voted with the majority (No).

I beg to move amendment No. 186, in page 2, line 19, at end insert--

'(ii) he has satisfied a judicial authority that there are reasonable grounds for believing that it is concerned in terrorism; and

(iii) that the judicial authority has issued a declaration that there are reasonable grounds for the exercise of the Secretary of State's power'.

to examine the expenditure, administration and policy of--

(a) the Security Service;

(b) the Intelligence Service; and

(c) GCHQ.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made: No. 1, in page 3, line 26, leave out "leave" and insert "permission".

No. 2, in page 3, line 28, leave out "leave" and insert "permission".-- [Mr. Charles Clarke.]

Amendments made: No. 3, in page 4, line 34, leave out from "Scotland" to end of line 8 on page 5 and insert "--

(a) for every reference to the Court of Appeal or the Crown Court substitute a reference to the High Court of Justiciary,

(b) in subsection (2)(b), at the end insert "and quash the conviction",

(c) in subsection (4)--

(i) in paragraph (a), for "28 days" substitute "two weeks", and

(ii) in paragraph (b), for "section 1 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1968" substitute "section 106 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995",

(d) in subsection (5)--

(i) for "by a magistrates' court" substitute "in summary proceedings", and

(ii) in paragraph (b), at the end insert "and quash the conviction",

(e) in subsection (6), paragraph (c) is omitted,

(f) in subsection (7)--

(i) in paragraph (a) for "21 days" substitute "two weeks", and

(ii) for paragraph (b) substitute--

"(b) shall be by note of appeal, which shall state the ground of appeal,

(c) shall not require leave under any provision of Part X of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, and

(d) shall be in accordance with such procedure as the High Court of Justiciary may, by Act of Adjournal, determine.".'

No. 4, in page 5, line 14, after "court,", insert--

'( ) the reference in subsection (6) to section 111 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 shall be taken as a reference to Article 146 of the Magistrates' Courts (Northern Ireland) Order 1981,'.-- [Mr. Charles Clarke.]

Amendment made: No. 5, in page 5, line 29, leave out--

'(but not paragraph 5(1)(a) or (3)(e))'.-- [Mr. Charles Clarke.]

I beg to move amendment No. 6, in page 14, line 22, leave out "by a magistrates' court".

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst):

With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 7, 8 and 10 to 13.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments made: No. 7, in page 14, line 25, after "Court," insert--

Amendments made: No. 11, in page 15, line 4, leave out "or (6)".

No. 12, in page 15, line 5, leave out "or (6)".-- [Mr. Charles Clarke.]

Amendment made: No. 13, in page 15, line 14, leave out paragraph (c).-- [Mr. Charles Clarke.]

I beg to move amendment No. 14, in page 18, line 16, leave out "57" and insert "62".

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 22 to 24 and 30.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move amendment No. 15, in page 18, line 37, after "detained", insert--

'in accordance with subsection (5) or (6) or'.

While Lord Lloyd acknowledges that there have been occasions on which the police might have found it more difficult to bring charges had they not been able to detain the suspect for longer than 4 days, he suggests that--

once there is a lasting peace in Northern Ireland, it ought to be possible to reduce the maximum period for which a suspect could be detained under the new legislation to a total of 4 days--ie. 2 days on the authority of the police plus 2 days with judicial authorisation before charge or release. His views may well have been influenced by the fact that the practice has been that extensions in international terrorist cases have not exceeded a total of 4 days.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments made: No. 23, in page 19, line 23, at end insert--

'( ) A constable may seize and retain anything which he discovers in the course of a search of a person under subsection (1) or (2) and which he reasonably suspects may constitute evidence that the person is a terrorist.'.

No. 24, in page 19, line 23, at end insert--

'( ) A person who has the powers of a constable in one Part of the United Kingdom may exercise a power under this section in any Part of the United Kingdom.'.-- [Mrs. McGuire.]

I beg to move amendment No. 25, in page 20, line 18, after "seize", insert "and retain".

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 26, 59, 94, 100 to 108, 112 to 114, 117, 118 and 121.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move amendment No. 182, in page 25, leave out lines 4 to 11.

I hope the House will agree that the amendment is important. This is the only opportunity that we shall have to discuss two matters that were central to previous debates. The first is whether the Bill, as drafted, is compatible with the European convention on human rights. The second is whether it is right that there should be powers to create what is sometimes described as the reverse burden of proof--whereby people have to prove that something is not the case, rather than the prosecution having to prove that it is the case.

A person commits an offence if he possesses an article in circumstances which give rise to a reasonable suspicion that his possession is for a purpose connected with the commission, preparation or instigation of an act of terrorism.

In proceedings for an offence under this section, if it is proved that an article . . . was on any premises at the same time as the accused, or . . . was on premises of which the accused was the occupier or which he habitually used other than as a member of the public, the court may assume that the accused possessed the article, unless he proves that he did not know of its presence on the premises or that he had no control over it.

A person commits an offence if he possesses an article in circumstances which give rise to a reasonable suspicion.

Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to the law.

during a search of premises occupied by a suspected terrorist, the police . . . find materials such as timers or chemicals in highly incriminating circumstances without also finding explosives or other prohibited materials--

be required to account to the court for his possession of the articles.

A person commits an offence if he possesses an article in circumstances which give rise to a reasonable suspicion that his possession is for a purpose connected with the commission, preparation or instigation of an act of terrorism.

It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that his possession of the article was not for a purpose connected with the commission, preparation or instigation of an act of terrorism.

Question put, That the amendment be made:--

The House divided: Ayes 35, Noes 239.

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Party Summary

Votes by party, red entries are votes against the majority for that party.

What is Tell? '+1 tell' means that in addition one member of that party was a teller for that division lobby.

What are Boths? An MP can vote both aye and no in the same division. The boths page explains this.

What is Turnout? This is measured against the total membership of the party at the time of the vote.

PartyMajority (No)Minority (Aye)BothTurnout
Con11 006.9%
Lab227 (+2 tell) 4056.0%
LDem0 30 (+2 tell)069.6%
SNP0 1016.7%
UUP1 0010.0%
Total:239 35043.6%

Rebel Voters - sorted by party

MPs for which their vote in this division differed from the majority vote of their party. You can see all votes in this division, or every eligible MP who could have voted in this division

Sort by: Name | Constituency | Party | Vote

NameConstituencyPartyVote
Jeremy CorbynIslington NorthLabaye
Lynne JonesBirmingham, Selly OakLabaye
John Martin McDonnellHayes and HarlingtonLab (minister)aye
Mr Kevin McNamaraKingston upon Hull NorthLabaye

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