Road Traffic (NHS Charges) Bill — 8 Dec 1998

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

The Bill does not introduce any new charges. It simply makes it easier for hospitals to collect from insurance companies charges that they have been entitled to collect for nearly 70 years. The present arrangements simply do not work, so the health service is losing a great deal of money. Nobody really knows how much. Estimates range from about £50 million a year to £500 million. Whatever the figure is, it is clear that, if the charges were collected properly, national health service hospitals would be a lot better off.

Under the present law, there are two charges. One is an emergency treatment fee of £21.30, which is supposed to be collected directly from any driver who needs immediate treatment from a doctor after a road accident. The other charge is supposed to be levied on insurers when a motor accident victim makes a successful claim for compensation. At present, this charge can be up to £295 for out-patient treatment and up to £2,949 for in-patient treatment.

Those charges do not work. They combine minimal income with maximum inconvenience. Last year, they raised just £16 million. To collect the emergency treatment fee, NHS staff must ask injured motorists for the money in the immediate aftermath of an accident. That causes maximum offence to the motorists, who may be in shock or pain. They sometimes get the impression that it is a charge for the use of an NHS ambulance. It is not.

Asking for the money is a rotten task for the staff who are supposed to do it. It is a diversion from their real job of looking after patients. In many cases, the emergency treatment fee is literally more trouble than it is worth.

Such problems are not confined to the emergency treatment fee. Motorists and other victims may be pressed while in accident and emergency, or even in a hospital bed, to say whether they are going to make a claim against somebody who caused the accident. Alternatively, they may be sent a letter out of the blue to ask them the same question.

The problems of collecting the charges do not end there. Hospitals sometimes send out letters to motorists to demand payment of one or both charges. That is because it is up to each hospital to track down the organisation responsible for paying the compensation. Each hospital must calculate the costs of the individual treatment provided to each motor accident victim, separating in-patient treatment costs from out-patient treatment costs. Each hospital then has to track the progress of each compensation claim.

The average motor accident injury claim takes two years to process, and many take much longer. The hospital must bill the insurer, and then chase them up and make sure that the debt has been paid. The motorist can get dragged into the process at various stages.

8 Dec 1998 : Column 161

I beg to move, To leave out from 'That' to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:

'this House declines to give a Second Reading to the Road Traffic (NHS Charges) Bill because the Bill further adds to the burdens the Government has imposed on both commercial and private motorists in that insurance premiums will rise; notes that the proposal did not appear anywhere in the Labour Party's election manifesto, and conflicts with the Government's express opposition to extending charges in the NHS; further notes that these charges will apply only to motorists and not to victims of other insurable accidents; and calls on the Government to clarify its future intentions with regard to both the level and range of any future additional charges in the NHS, and to take into account the impact on the motorist when determining the amounts to be charged.'

Question put, That the amendment be made:--

The House divided: Ayes 150, Noes 347.

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Peter AinsworthEast SurreyConaye
James ArbuthnotNorth East HampshireCon (front bench)aye
Peter AtkinsonHexhamConaye
Mr Richard BodyBoston and SkegnessConaye
Peter BottomleyWorthing WestCon (front bench)aye
Graham BradyAltrincham and Sale WestCon (front bench)aye
Julian BrazierCanterburyCon (front bench)aye
Angela BrowningTiverton and HonitonConaye
Mr Ian BruceSouth DorsetConaye
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John ButterfillBournemouth WestConaye
Sir Sydney ChapmanChipping BarnetConaye
Christopher ChopeChristchurchCon (front bench)aye
James ClappisonHertsmereCon (front bench)aye
Mr Alan ClarkKensington and ChelseaConaye
Dr Michael ClarkRayleighConaye
Kenneth ClarkeRushcliffeConaye
Geoffrey Clifton-BrownCotswoldCon (front bench)aye
Mr Tim CollinsWestmorland and LonsdaleContellaye
Mr Michael ColvinRomseyConaye
Mr James CranBeverley and HoldernessConaye
Mr Stephen DayCheadleConaye
Alan DuncanRutland and MeltonCon (front bench)aye
Sir Peter EmeryEast DevonConaye
Nigel EvansRibble ValleyConaye
Mr David FaberWestburyConaye
Michael FabricantLichfieldConaye
Michael FallonSevenoaksConaye
Liam FoxWoodspringCon (front bench)aye
Roger GaleNorth ThanetCon (front bench)aye
Edward GarnierHarboroughConaye
Nick GibbBognor Regis and LittlehamptonCon (front bench)aye
Mr Christopher GillLudlowConaye
Dame Cheryl GillanChesham and AmershamCon (front bench)aye
Mrs Teresa GormanBillericayConaye
James GrayNorth WiltshireCon (front bench)aye
Damian GreenAshfordCon (front bench)aye
John GreenwayRyedaleConaye
Dominic GrieveBeaconsfieldCon (front bench)aye
John GummerSuffolk CoastalConaye
Philip HammondRunnymede and WeybridgeCon (front bench)aye
Mr Nick HawkinsSurrey HeathConaye
John HayesSouth Holland and The DeepingsCon (front bench)aye
Douglas HoggSleaford and North HykehamConaye
John HoramOrpingtonConaye
Michael HowardFolkestone and HytheCon (front bench)aye
Gerald HowarthAldershotCon (front bench)aye
Mr Andrew HunterBasingstokeConaye
Michael JackFyldeConaye
Robert JacksonWantageConaye
Bernard JenkinNorth EssexCon (front bench)aye
Robert KeySalisburyConaye
Julie KirkbrideBromsgroveConaye
Eleanor LaingEpping ForestCon (front bench)aye
Jacqui LaitBeckenhamConaye
Andrew LansleySouth CambridgeshireCon (front bench)aye
Edward LeighGainsboroughCon (front bench)aye
Julian LewisNew Forest EastCon (front bench)aye
David LidingtonAylesburyConaye
Peter LilleyHitchin and HarpendenCon (front bench)aye
Sir Peter LloydFarehamConaye
Tim LoughtonEast Worthing and ShorehamCon (front bench)aye
Peter LuffMid WorcestershireCon (front bench)aye
Sir Nicholas LyellNorth East BedfordshireCon (front bench)aye
Mr John MacGregorSouth NorfolkConaye
Mr David MadelSouth West BedfordshireContellaye
Humfrey MalinsWokingConaye
Francis MaudeHorshamCon (front bench)aye
Dr Brian MawhinneyNorth West CambridgeshireConaye
Theresa MayMaidenheadCon (front bench)aye
Patrick McLoughlinWest DerbyshireCon (front bench)aye
Malcolm MossNorth East CambridgeshireConaye
Mr Archie NormanTunbridge WellsConaye
Richard OttawayCroydon SouthCon (front bench)aye
Mr Richard PageSouth West HertfordshireConaye
Owen PatersonNorth ShropshireCon (front bench)aye
Eric PicklesBrentwood and OngarCon (front bench)aye
Mr David PriorNorth NorfolkConaye
John RandallUxbridgeCon (front bench)aye
John RedwoodWokinghamCon (front bench)aye
Andrew RobathanBlabyCon (front bench)aye
Laurence RobertsonTewkesburyCon (front bench)aye
Mrs Marion RoeBroxbourneConaye
Mr Andrew RoweFaversham and Mid KentConaye
David RuffleyBury St EdmundsCon (front bench)aye
Mr Jonathan SayeedMid BedfordshireConaye
Mrs Gillian ShephardSouth West NorfolkCon (front bench)aye
Keith SimpsonMid NorfolkCon (front bench)aye
Michael SpicerWest WorcestershireCon (front bench)aye
Richard SpringWest SuffolkConaye
Mr Nick St AubynGuildfordConaye
John StanleyTonbridge and MallingCon (front bench)aye
Anthony SteenTotnesConaye
Desmond SwayneNew Forest WestCon (front bench)aye
Robert SymsPooleCon (front bench)aye
Mr John TaylorSolihullConaye
Mr John TownendEast YorkshireConaye
David TredinnickBosworthCon (front bench)aye
Mr Michael TrendWindsorConaye
Andrew TyrieChichesterCon (front bench)aye
Peter ViggersGosportConaye
Robert WalterNorth DorsetCon (front bench)aye
Charles WardleBexhill and Battlewhilst Conaye
Nigel WatersonEastbourneConaye
Mr Bowen WellsHertford and StortfordConaye
Sir Ray WhitneyWycombeConaye
John WhittingdaleMaldon and East ChelmsfordCon (front bench)aye
Ann WiddecombeMaidstone and The WealdConaye
David WillettsHavantCon (front bench)aye
David WilshireSpelthorneConaye
Ann WintertonCongletonConaye
Nicholas WintertonMacclesfieldConaye
Shaun WoodwardWitneywhilst Con (front bench)aye
George YoungNorth West HampshireCon (front bench)aye
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Sam GalbraithStrathkelvin and BearsdenLab (minister)no
Mike GapesIlford SouthLabno
Barry GardinerBrent NorthLab (minister)no
Neil GerrardWalthamstowLabno
Ian GibsonNorwich NorthLabno
Linda GilroyPlymouth, SuttonLabno
Dr Norman GodmanGreenock and InverclydeLabno
Roger GodsiffBirmingham, Sparkbrook and Small HeathLabno
Paul GogginsWythenshawe and Sale EastLabno
Mrs Eileen GordonRomfordLabno
Ms Jane GriffithsReading EastLabno
Nigel GriffithsEdinburgh SouthLabno
Mr Win GriffithsBridgendLabno
Mr Bruce GrocottTelfordLabno
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Mike HallWeaver ValeLab (minister)no
Patrick HallBedfordLabno
Fabian HamiltonLeeds North EastLab (minister)no
David HansonDelynLab (minister)tellno
Harriet HarmanCamberwell and PeckhamLab (minister)no
Sylvia HealHalesowen and Rowley Regiswhilst Labno
John HealeyWentworthLab (minister)no
Mr Ivan HendersonHarwichLabno
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John HeppellNottingham EastLabno
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Keith HillStreathamLab (minister)no
Mr David HinchliffeWakefieldLabno
John Home RobertsonEast LothianLabno
Jimmy HoodClydesdaleLab (minister)no
Geoff HoonAshfieldLab (minister)no
Phil HopeCorbyLabno
Kelvin HopkinsLuton NorthLabno
Mr Alan HowarthNewport EastLab (minister)no
George HowarthKnowsley North and Sefton EastLab (minister)no
Kim HowellsPontypriddLab (minister)no
Lindsay HoyleChorleyLab (minister)no
Mr Kevin HughesDoncaster NorthLab (minister)no
Joan HumbleBlackpool North and FleetwoodLabno
Mr Alan HurstBraintreeLabno
John HuttonBarrow and FurnessLab (minister)no
Brian IddonBolton South EastLabno
Eric IllsleyBarnsley CentralLabno
Glenda JacksonHampstead and HighgateLab (minister)no
Mrs Helen JacksonSheffield, HillsboroughLabno
Mr David JamiesonPlymouth, DevonportLab (minister)tellno
Alan JohnsonKingston upon Hull West and HessleLabno
Miss Melanie JohnsonWelwyn HatfieldLabno
Mr Barry JonesAlyn and DeesideLabno
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Ms Jenny JonesWolverhampton South WestLabno
Mr Jon Owen JonesCardiff CentralLab (minister)no
Lynne JonesBirmingham, Selly OakLabno
Martyn JonesClwyd SouthLabno
Tessa JowellDulwich and West NorwoodLab (minister)no
Gerald KaufmanManchester, GortonLab (minister)no
Sally KeebleNorthampton NorthLabno
Alan KeenFeltham and HestonLabno
Ann KeenBrentford and IsleworthLabno
Ruth KellyBolton WestLabno
Fraser KempHoughton and Washington EastLabno
Jane KennedyLiverpool, WavertreeLab (minister)no
Piara S KhabraEaling, SouthallLabno
David KidneyStaffordLabno
Peter KilfoyleLiverpool, WaltonLab (minister)no
Mr Andy KingRugby and KenilworthLabno
Ms Oona KingBethnal Green and BowLab (minister)no
Ashok KumarMiddlesbrough South and East ClevelandLabno
Mrs Jackie LawrencePreseli PembrokeshireLabno
Bob LaxtonDerby NorthLabno
David LepperBrighton, PavilionLabno
Chris LeslieShipleyLabno
Tom LevittHigh PeakLabno
Ivan LewisBury SouthLabno
Mr Terry LewisWorsleyLabno
Tony LloydManchester CentralLab (minister)no
Mr David LockWyre ForestLabno
Andrew LoveEdmontonLab (minister)no
Mr Calum MacDonaldNa h-Eileanan an IarLab (minister)no
Andrew MacKinlayThurrockLabno
Denis MacShaneRotherhamLabno
Fiona MactaggartSloughLabno
Mrs Alice MahonHalifaxLabno
Judy MallaberAmber ValleyLabno
Dr John MarekWrexhamLabno
Mr Paul MarsdenShrewsbury and AtchamLabno
David MarshallGlasgow ShettlestonLabno
Dr Jim MarshallLeicester SouthLabno
Robert Marshall-AndrewsMedwayLabno
Eric MartlewCarlisleLabno
Mr John MaxtonGlasgow CathcartLabno
John McAllionDundee EastLabno
Thomas McAvoyGlasgow RutherglenLab (minister)no
Steve McCabeBirmingham, Hall GreenLab (minister)no
Chris McCaffertyCalder ValleyLabno
Ian McCartneyMakerfieldLab (minister)no
Siobhain McDonaghMitcham and MordenLabno
John Martin McDonnellHayes and HarlingtonLabno
Anne McGuireStirlingLab (minister)no
Shona McIsaacCleethorpesLabno
Rosemary McKennaCumbernauld and KilsythLabno
Henry McLeishCentral FifeLab (minister)no
Tony McNultyHarrow EastLabno
Mr John McWilliamBlaydonLabno
Alun MichaelCardiff South and PenarthLab (minister)no
Mr Bill MichieSheffield, HeeleyLabno
Alan MilburnDarlingtonLab (minister)no
Andrew MillerEllesmere Port and NestonLabno
Austin MitchellGreat GrimsbyLab (minister)no
Laura MoffattCrawleyLabno
Dr Lewis MoonieKirkcaldyLab (minister)no
Margaret MoranLuton SouthLabno
Julie MorganCardiff NorthLabno
Mr Rhodri MorganCardiff WestLabno
Elliot MorleyScunthorpeLab (minister)no
Ms Estelle MorrisBirmingham, YardleyLab (minister)no
Kali MountfordColne ValleyLabno
George MudieLeeds EastLab (minister)no
Chris MullinSunderland SouthLabno
Denis MurphyWansbeckLabno
Jim MurphyEast RenfrewshireLabno
Doug NaysmithBristol North WestLabno
Dan NorrisWansdykeLabno
Mr Bill O'BrienNormantonLabno
Mike O'BrienNorth WarwickshireLab (minister)no
Edward O'HaraKnowsley SouthLabno
Mr Martin O'NeillOchilLab (minister)no
Bill OlnerNuneatonLabno
Mrs Diana OrganForest of DeanLabno
Sandra OsborneAyrLab (minister)no
Nick PalmerBroxtoweLabno
Ian PearsonDudley SouthLabno
Mr Tom PendryStalybridge and HydeLabno
Mr Colin PickthallWest LancashireLabno
Mr Peter PikeBurnleyLabno
James PlaskittWarwick and LeamingtonLabno
Mr Kerry PollardSt AlbansLabno
Mr Chris PondGraveshamLabno
Greg PopeHyndburnLab (minister)no
Mr Raymond PowellOgmoreLabno
Bridget PrenticeLewisham EastLabno
Gordon PrenticePendleLabno
Dawn PrimaroloBristol SouthLab (minister)no
Gwyn ProsserDoverLabno
Ken PurchaseWolverhampton North EastLabno
Ms Joyce QuinGateshead East and Washington WestLab (minister)no
Mr Lawrie QuinnScarborough and WhitbyLabno
Mr Giles RadiceNorth DurhamLab (minister)no
Bill RammellHarlowLabno
Mr Syd RapsonPortsmouth NorthLabno
Andy ReedLoughboroughLabno
John ReidHamilton North and BellshillLab (minister)no
Geoffrey RobinsonCoventry North WestLab (minister)no
Mrs Barbara RocheHornsey and Wood GreenLab (minister)no
Mr Allan RogersRhonddaLabno
Mr Jeff RookerBirmingham, Perry BarrLab (minister)no
Terry RooneyBradford NorthLabno
Mr Ernie RossDundee WestLabno
Mr Ted RowlandsMerthyr Tydfil and RhymneyLab (minister)no
Frank RoyMotherwell and WishawLabno
Chris RuaneVale of ClwydLabno
Christine RussellCity of ChesterLabno
Joan RyanEnfield NorthLabno
Martin SalterReading WestLabno
Mohammad SarwarGlasgow GovanLabno
Mr Malcolm SavidgeAberdeen NorthLabno
Mr Phil SawfordKetteringLabno
Mr Brian SedgemoreHackney South and ShoreditchLabno
Jonathan R ShawChatham and AylesfordLabno
Barry SheermanHuddersfieldLabno
Mr Robert SheldonAshton-under-LyneLab (minister)no
Ms Debra ShipleyStourbridgeLabno
Alan SimpsonNottingham SouthLabno
Marsha SinghBradford WestLabno
Dennis SkinnerBolsoverLabno
Andrew SmithOxford EastLab (minister)no
Angela SmithBasildonLabno
Jacqui SmithRedditchLabno
John SmithVale of GlamorganLabno
Mr Llew SmithBlaenau GwentLabno
Mr Peter SnapeWest Bromwich EastLabno
Mr Clive SoleyEaling, Acton and Shepherd's BushLab (minister)no
Helen SouthworthWarrington SouthLabno
Rachel SquireDunfermline WestLabno
Phyllis StarkeyMilton Keynes South WestLabno
Mr Gerry SteinbergCity of DurhamLabno
Mr George StevensonStoke-on-Trent SouthLabno
Mr David StewartInverness East, Nairn and LochaberLabno
Ian StewartEcclesLabno
Mr Paul StinchcombeWellingboroughLabno
Howard StoateDartfordLabno
Mr Roger StottWiganLabno
Gavin StrangEdinburgh East and MusselburghLabno
Jack StrawBlackburnLab (minister)no
Graham StringerManchester, BlackleyLab (minister)no
Gisela StuartBirmingham, EdgbastonLabno
Gerry SutcliffeBradford SouthLabno
Mrs Ann TaylorDewsburyLab (minister)no
Dari TaylorStockton SouthLabno
David TaylorNorth West LeicestershireLabno
Mr Peter Temple-MorrisLeominsterwhilst Labno
Mr Gareth ThomasClwyd WestLabno
Gareth ThomasHarrow WestLab (minister)no
Paddy TippingSherwoodLabno
Mark ToddSouth DerbyshireLabno
Don TouhigIslwynLabno
Jon TrickettHemsworthLabno
Paul TruswellPudseyLabno
Mr Dennis TurnerWolverhampton South EastLab (minister)no
Desmond TurnerBrighton, KemptownLabno
Dr George TurnerNorth West NorfolkLabno
Derek TwiggHaltonLab (minister)no
Stephen TwiggEnfield, SouthgateLabno
Keith VazLeicester EastLabno
Joan WalleyStoke-on-Trent NorthLab (minister)no
Claire WardWatfordLabno
Robert WareingLiverpool, West DerbyLabno
Mr Brian WhiteNorth East Milton KeynesLabno
Alan WhiteheadSouthampton, TestLab (minister)no
Malcolm WicksCroydon NorthLabno
Dr Alan WilliamsCarmarthen East and DinefwrLabno
Alan WilliamsSwansea WestLabno
Michael WillsNorth SwindonLabno
David WinnickWalsall NorthLab (minister)no
Rosie WintertonDoncaster CentralLabno
Ms Audrey WisePrestonLabno
Mike WoodBatley and SpenLabno
Phil WoolasOldham East and SaddleworthLabno
Mr Jimmy WrayGlasgow BailliestonLabno
Anthony D WrightGreat YarmouthLabno
Tony WrightCannock ChaseLabno
Derek WyattSittingbourne and SheppeyLabno
Mr Richard AllanSheffield, HallamLDem (front bench)aye
Norman BakerLewesLDem (front bench)aye
Mrs Jackie BallardTauntonLDemaye
Tom BrakeCarshalton and WallingtonLDem (front bench)aye
Dr Peter BrandIsle of WightLDemaye
Colin BreedSouth East CornwallLDemaye
Malcolm BruceGordonLDem (front bench)aye
Menzies CampbellNorth East FifeLDem (front bench)aye
Mr David ChidgeyEastleighLDem (front bench)aye
Mr Brian CotterWeston-Super-MareLDem (front bench)aye
Don FosterBathLDem (front bench)aye
Andrew GeorgeSt IvesLDem (front bench)aye
Donald GorrieEdinburgh WestLDemaye
Evan HarrisOxford West and AbingdonLDemaye
Nick HarveyNorth DevonLDemaye
David HeathSomerton and FromeLDem (front bench)aye
Simon HughesNorth Southwark and BermondseyLDem (front bench)aye
Paul KeetchHerefordLDemaye
Mr Archy KirkwoodRoxburgh and BerwickshireLDem (front bench)aye
Mr Robert MaclennanCaithness, Sutherland and Easter RossLDem (front bench)aye
Mrs Ray MichieArgyll and ButeLDemaye
Michael MooreTweeddale, Ettrick and LauderdaleLDem (front bench)aye
Mark OatenWinchesterLDemaye
Lembit ÖpikMontgomeryshireLDemaye
Mr David RendelNewburyLDemaye
Bob RussellColchesterLDem (front bench)aye
Adrian SandersTorbayLDem (front bench)aye
Robert SmithWest Aberdeenshire and KincardineLDemaye
Andrew StunellHazel GroveLDem (front bench)aye
Matthew TaylorTruro and St AustellLDem (front bench)aye
Dr Jenny TongeRichmond ParkLDem (front bench)aye
Mr Paul TylerNorth CornwallLDem (front bench)aye
Jim WallaceOrkney and ShetlandLDemaye
Steve WebbNorthavonLDem (front bench)aye
Phil WillisHarrogate and KnaresboroughLDem (front bench)aye
Mr Cynog DafisCeredigionPCno
Margaret EwingMoraySNPaye
Alasdair MorganGalloway and Upper NithsdaleSNPaye
John SwinneyNorth TaysideSNPaye

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