Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Bill — Preservation of rights in respect of additional pensions — 24 Jul 2000

Lords Amendments considered.

Lords amendment: No. 1, in page 2, line 34, leave out from beginning to ("and") in line 39

I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin):

With this we may discuss Lords amendments Nos. 2 to 14, 64 to 66, 68 to 72, 78, 79 and 84.

Lords amendment agreed to.

Lords amendments Nos. 2 to 14 agreed to.

Lords amendment: No. 15, in page 23, line 40, leave out ("10") and insert ("10(1)")

I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

With this we may discuss Lords amendments Nos. 62, 63, 67 and 77.

Lords amendment agreed to.

Lords amendment: No. 16, before clause 36, to insert the following new clause-- Report on cost of pension uprating in line with general earnings level --

I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.

24 Jul 2000 : Column 797

the Minister's total indifference to the strengthening of the basic pension arises from the fact that not only she, but also the Government, abandoned the principle of state insurance altogether.

the Government have accepted the amendment and are happy to do so . . . we are just splicing together two sets of reports.--[ Official Report, House of Lords , 19 July 2000; Vol. 615, c. 1097-1102.]

and in order to enable Parliament to determine the introduction of such annual increases.

Lords amendment agreed to.

Lords amendment: No. 17, in page 34, line 22, at end insert--

("(4B) The regulations shall be based on the presumption that claimants have received incorrect or incomplete information unless the Secretary of State provides proof that the information the claimant received was correct and complete.")

I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.

24 Jul 2000 : Column 803

in view of the extensive consideration in 1999 given to the issue of misleading information, we are concerned that from November 1999 to 10 January 2000 contradictory lines were taken in official correspondence and other sources of information about the legal position after 5 April 2000.

redress on a global, rather than an individual, basis.

would not have acted differently had he or she not been misinformed rested on the department.

There is a very real issue of proof . . . No record is kept of telephone calls, any more than a record is normally kept of conversations at the desk. Paper records are kept for about six months. But if someone asserted that he had received that

misleading advice, I suspect it may well be the case that the Government would have to prove that he had not, rather than the contrary, because there would be no evidence to counterbalance it.--[ Official Report, House of Lords , 6 July 1999; Vol. 603, c. 847.]

I suggested to the Department that the onus of proof was therefore reversed. It was for the Department to prove someone would not have acted differently if they had not been misinformed . . . The presumption had to be that anyone who could reasonably claim to have been misled and in consequence to have acted, or failed to act, to their detriment had a prima facie claim for redress.

will still have to prove that they suffered loss as a result.

Therefore, there are two issues: were the people given incorrect or incomplete information, and did that cause loss? People will still have to prove loss, but the presumption will be that they were given duff information, unless the Government can prove otherwise.

When the time comes for people to make their claims, we envisage asking them a few questions about how and roughly when they saw a leaflet.--[ Official Report, House of Lords , 27 June 2000; Vol. 614, c. 771-72, 777.]

it will still be up to individuals to make a claim; to provide details of how they were misinformed; to show they relied on this information . . . and to show that they may suffer financially.

The majority of those misled are pensioners, many may not feel up to the task of convincing the DSS that their claim is valid.

Continuing the uncertainty is a constant source of distress and erosion in our lives. Can I please make my application soon, remove this worry and enjoy the time left to us?

I suggested . . . that the onus of proof was therefore reversed?

that anyone who could reasonably claim to have been misled . . . had a prima facie claim for redress.

Question put, That the House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment:--

The House divided: Ayes 287, Noes 26.

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All Votes Cast - sorted by party

MPs for which their vote in this division differed from the majority vote of their party are marked in red. Also shows which MPs were ministers at the time of this vote. You can also see every eligible MP including those who did not vote in this division.

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NameConstituencyPartyVote
Mr Martin BellTattonIndependentno
Diane AbbottHackney North and Stoke NewingtonLab (minister)aye
Nick AingerCarmarthen West and South PembrokeshireLabaye
Graham AllenNottingham NorthLab (minister)aye
Mr Donald AndersonSwansea EastLab (minister)aye
Mr Joe AshtonBassetlawLabaye
Ms Candy AthertonFalmouth and CamborneLabaye
Charlotte AtkinsStaffordshire MoorlandsLabaye
Mr Tony BanksWest HamLab (minister)aye
Mr Harry BarnesNorth East DerbyshireLabaye
Kevin BarronRother ValleyLab (minister)aye
Hugh BayleyCity of YorkLab (minister)aye
Mr Nigel BeardBexleyheath and CrayfordLabaye
Margaret BeckettDerby SouthLab (minister)aye
Anne BeggAberdeen SouthLab (minister)aye
Stuart BellMiddlesbroughLab (minister)aye
Hilary BennLeeds CentralLab (minister)aye
Mr Tony BennChesterfieldLabaye
Mr Andrew BennettDenton and ReddishLabaye
Joe BentonBootleLabaye
Mr Gerry BerminghamSt Helens SouthLabaye
Roger BerryKingswoodLabaye
Mr Harold BestLeeds North WestLabaye
Clive BettsSheffield, AttercliffeLab (minister)aye
Hazel BlearsSalfordLabaye
Bob BlizzardWaveneyLabaye
Mr Paul BoatengBrent SouthLab (minister)aye
David BorrowSouth RibbleLabaye
Mr Keith BradleyManchester, WithingtonLab (minister)aye
Mr Peter BradleyThe WrekinLabaye
Ben BradshawExeterLab (minister)aye
Nick BrownNewcastle upon Tyne East and WallsendLab (minister)aye
Russell BrownDumfriesLab (minister)aye
Richard BurdenBirmingham, NorthfieldLabaye
Colin BurgonElmetLabaye
Mrs Christine ButlerCastle PointLabaye
Mrs Anne CampbellCambridgeLabaye
Ronnie CampbellBlyth ValleyLab (minister)aye
Mr Dale Campbell-SavoursWorkingtonLab (minister)aye
Mr Jamie CannIpswichLabaye
Mr Ivor CaplinHoveLabaye
Mr Roger CasaleWimbledonLabaye
Ian CawseyBrigg and GooleLabaye
Ben ChapmanWirral SouthLabaye
David ChaytorBury NorthLabaye
Malcolm ChisholmEdinburgh North and LeithLabaye
Michael ClaphamBarnsley West and PenistoneLabaye
Dr David ClarkSouth ShieldsLabaye
Ms Helen ClarkPeterboroughLabaye
Paul ClarkGillinghamLabaye
Mr Eric ClarkeMidlothianLabaye
Tom ClarkeCoatbridge and ChrystonLabaye
Mr Tony ClarkeNorthampton SouthLabaye
David ClellandTyne BridgeLab (minister)aye
Ann ClwydCynon ValleyLab (minister)aye
Vernon CoakerGedlingLabaye
Ann CoffeyStockportLabaye
Harry CohenLeyton and WansteadLabaye
Michael ConnartyFalkirk EastLab (minister)aye
Frank CookStockton NorthLabaye
Yvette CooperPontefract and CastlefordLab (minister)aye
Mr Robin CorbettBirmingham, ErdingtonLab (minister)aye
Jeremy CorbynIslington NorthLabaye
Ms Jean CorstonBristol EastLabaye
Mr Tom CoxTootingLabaye
Professor Ross CranstonDudley NorthLab (minister)aye
Ann CryerKeighleyLabaye
John CryerHornchurchLabaye
John CummingsEasingtonLabaye
Dr Jack CunninghamCopelandLabaye
Jim CunninghamCoventry SouthLab (minister)aye
Claire Curtis-ThomasCrosbyLabaye
Mr Tam DalyellLinlithgowLabaye
Alistair DarlingEdinburgh CentralLab (minister)aye
Mr Keith DarvillUpminsterLabaye
Mrs Valerie DaveyBristol WestLabaye
Geraint DaviesCroydon CentralLab (minister)aye
Mr Terry DavisBirmingham, Hodge HillLabaye
Mr Hilton DawsonLancaster and WyreLabaye
Janet DeanBurtonLabaye
John DenhamSouthampton, ItchenLab (minister)aye
Andrew DismoreHendonLabaye
Jim DobbinHeywood and MiddletonLabaye
Frank DobsonHolborn and St PancrasLabaye
Brian H DonohoeCunninghame SouthLab (minister)aye
Frank DoranAberdeen CentralLabaye
Jim DowdLewisham WestLab (minister)tellaye
David DrewStroudLab (minister)aye
Gwyneth DunwoodyCrewe and NantwichLabaye
Angela EagleWallaseyLab (minister)aye
Maria EagleLiverpool, GarstonLabaye
Clive EffordElthamLab (minister)aye
Louise EllmanLiverpool, RiversideLabaye
Jeff EnnisBarnsley East and MexboroughLabaye
Frank FieldBirkenheadLabaye
Mark FisherStoke-on-Trent CentralLabaye
Ms Lorna FitzsimonsRochdaleLabaye
Caroline FlintDon ValleyLabaye
Paul FlynnNewport WestLabaye
Mr Derek FosterBishop AucklandLab (minister)aye
Michael FosterWorcesterLabaye
Michael Jabez FosterHastings and RyeLabaye
Mrs Maria FyfeGlasgow MaryhillLabaye
Barry GardinerBrent NorthLab (minister)aye
Neil GerrardWalthamstowLabaye
Ian GibsonNorwich NorthLabaye
Paul GogginsWythenshawe and Sale EastLabaye
Mrs Llin GoldingNewcastle-under-LymeLabaye
Mrs Eileen GordonRomfordLabaye
Ms Jane GriffithsReading EastLabaye
Mr Win GriffithsBridgendLabaye
Mr John GunnellMorley and RothwellLabaye
Mike HallWeaver ValeLab (minister)aye
Patrick HallBedfordLabaye
Fabian HamiltonLeeds North EastLab (minister)aye
Sylvia HealHalesowen and Rowley Regiswhilst Labaye
John HealeyWentworthLabaye
Mr Ivan HendersonHarwichLabaye
Stephen HepburnJarrowLab (minister)aye
Stephen HesfordWirral WestLabaye
Keith HillStreathamLab (minister)aye
Mr David HinchliffeWakefieldLabaye
John Home RobertsonEast LothianLabaye
Kelvin HopkinsLuton NorthLabaye
George HowarthKnowsley North and Sefton EastLab (minister)aye
Kim HowellsPontypriddLab (minister)aye
Beverley HughesStretford and UrmstonLab (minister)aye
Mr Kevin HughesDoncaster NorthLab (minister)aye
Joan HumbleBlackpool North and FleetwoodLabaye
Mr Alan HurstBraintreeLabaye
Brian IddonBolton South EastLabaye
Eric IllsleyBarnsley CentralLabaye
Glenda JacksonHampstead and HighgateLabaye
Mrs Helen JacksonSheffield, HillsboroughLabaye
Mr David JamiesonPlymouth, DevonportLab (minister)tellaye
Brian JenkinsTamworthLabaye
Alan JohnsonKingston upon Hull West and HessleLab (minister)aye
Miss Melanie JohnsonWelwyn HatfieldLab (minister)aye
Mr Barry JonesAlyn and DeesideLabaye
Fiona JonesNewarkLabaye
Helen JonesWarrington NorthLab (minister)aye
Ms Jenny JonesWolverhampton South WestLabaye
Lynne JonesBirmingham, Selly OakLabaye
Martyn JonesClwyd SouthLabaye
Tessa JowellDulwich and West NorwoodLab (minister)aye
Gerald KaufmanManchester, GortonLab (minister)aye
Sally KeebleNorthampton NorthLabaye
Alan KeenFeltham and HestonLabaye
Ann KeenBrentford and IsleworthLabaye
Ruth KellyBolton WestLabaye
Jane KennedyLiverpool, WavertreeLab (minister)aye
Piara S KhabraEaling, SouthallLabaye
David KidneyStaffordLabaye
Peter KilfoyleLiverpool, WaltonLabaye
Mr Andy KingRugby and KenilworthLabaye
Ashok KumarMiddlesbrough South and East ClevelandLabaye
Stephen LadymanSouth ThanetLabaye
Mrs Jackie LawrencePreseli PembrokeshireLabaye
Bob LaxtonDerby NorthLabaye
David LepperBrighton, PavilionLabaye
Chris LeslieShipleyLabaye
Tom LevittHigh PeakLabaye
Ivan LewisBury SouthLabaye
Mr Terry LewisWorsleyLabaye
Martin LintonBatterseaLabaye
Tony LloydManchester CentralLabaye
Mr David LockWyre ForestLab (minister)aye
Andrew LoveEdmontonLab (minister)aye
Mr Calum MacDonaldNa h-Eileanan an IarLabaye
Denis MacShaneRotherhamLabaye
Fiona MactaggartSloughLabaye
Mrs Alice MahonHalifaxLabaye
Judy MallaberAmber ValleyLabaye
Gordon MarsdenBlackpool SouthLab (minister)aye
David MarshallGlasgow ShettlestonLabaye
Dr Jim MarshallLeicester SouthLabaye
Robert Marshall-AndrewsMedwayLabaye
Mr John MaxtonGlasgow CathcartLabaye
John McAllionDundee EastLabaye
Thomas McAvoyGlasgow RutherglenLab (minister)aye
Steve McCabeBirmingham, Hall GreenLab (minister)aye
Chris McCaffertyCalder ValleyLabaye
Siobhain McDonaghMitcham and MordenLabaye
John Martin McDonnellHayes and HarlingtonLabaye
Anne McGuireStirlingLab (minister)aye
Shona McIsaacCleethorpesLabaye
Rosemary McKennaCumbernauld and KilsythLabaye
Mr Kevin McNamaraKingston upon Hull NorthLabaye
Tony McNultyHarrow EastLab (minister)aye
Mr John McWilliamBlaydonLabaye
Alan MealeMansfieldLab (minister)aye
Gillian MerronLincolnLabaye
Alun MichaelCardiff South and PenarthLabaye
Mr Bill MichieSheffield, HeeleyLabaye
Andrew MillerEllesmere Port and NestonLabaye
Austin MitchellGreat GrimsbyLab (minister)aye
Laura MoffattCrawleyLabaye
Dr Lewis MoonieKirkcaldyLab (minister)aye
Julie MorganCardiff NorthLabaye
Elliot MorleyScunthorpeLab (minister)aye
Ms Estelle MorrisBirmingham, YardleyLab (minister)aye
Kali MountfordColne ValleyLabaye
George MudieLeeds EastLabaye
Jim MurphyEast RenfrewshireLab (minister)aye
Doug NaysmithBristol North WestLabaye
Dan NorrisWansdykeLabaye
Edward O'HaraKnowsley SouthLabaye
Bill OlnerNuneatonLabaye
Mrs Diana OrganForest of DeanLabaye
Sandra OsborneAyrLabaye
Nick PalmerBroxtoweLabaye
Ian PearsonDudley SouthLabaye
Ms Linda PerhamIlford NorthLabaye
Mr Colin PickthallWest LancashireLabaye
Mr Peter PikeBurnleyLabaye
James PlaskittWarwick and LeamingtonLabaye
Mr Kerry PollardSt AlbansLabaye
Mr Chris PondGraveshamLabaye
Steve PoundEaling NorthLab (minister)aye
Mr Raymond PowellOgmoreLabaye
Bridget PrenticeLewisham EastLabaye
Gordon PrenticePendleLabaye
Gwyn ProsserDoverLabaye
Ken PurchaseWolverhampton North EastLabaye
Mr Lawrie QuinnScarborough and WhitbyLabaye
Mr Giles RadiceNorth DurhamLab (minister)aye
Bill RammellHarlowLabaye
Andy ReedLoughboroughLabaye
John ReidHamilton North and BellshillLab (minister)aye
Mrs Barbara RocheHornsey and Wood GreenLab (minister)aye
Mr Jeff RookerBirmingham, Perry BarrLab (minister)aye
Mr Ernie RossDundee WestLabaye
Mr Ted RowlandsMerthyr Tydfil and RhymneyLab (minister)aye
Frank RoyMotherwell and WishawLabaye
Chris RuaneVale of ClwydLab (minister)aye
Joan RuddockLewisham, DeptfordLabaye
Christine RussellCity of ChesterLabaye
Joan RyanEnfield NorthLabaye
Martin SalterReading WestLabaye
Mr Malcolm SavidgeAberdeen NorthLabaye
Mr Brian SedgemoreHackney South and ShoreditchLabaye
Jonathan R ShawChatham and AylesfordLabaye
Barry SheermanHuddersfieldLab (minister)aye
Mr Robert SheldonAshton-under-LyneLab (minister)aye
Alan SimpsonNottingham SouthLabaye
Dennis SkinnerBolsoverLab (minister)aye
Andrew SmithOxford EastLab (minister)aye
Angela SmithBasildonLabaye
John SmithVale of GlamorganLabaye
Mr Llew SmithBlaenau GwentLabaye
Helen SouthworthWarrington SouthLabaye
Rachel SquireDunfermline WestLabaye
Phyllis StarkeyMilton Keynes South WestLabaye
Mr Gerry SteinbergCity of DurhamLabaye
Mr George StevensonStoke-on-Trent SouthLabaye
Mr David StewartInverness East, Nairn and LochaberLabaye
Howard StoateDartfordLabaye
Gisela StuartBirmingham, EdgbastonLab (minister)aye
Gerry SutcliffeBradford SouthLab (minister)aye
Mrs Ann TaylorDewsburyLab (minister)aye
David TaylorNorth West LeicestershireLabaye
Mr Peter Temple-MorrisLeominsterwhilst Labaye
Gareth ThomasHarrow WestLab (minister)aye
Stephen TimmsEast HamLab (minister)aye
Paddy TippingSherwoodLab (minister)aye
Mark ToddSouth DerbyshireLabaye
Don TouhigIslwynLab (minister)aye
Paul TruswellPudseyLabaye
Mr Dennis TurnerWolverhampton South EastLab (minister)aye
Neil TurnerWiganLabaye
Stephen TwiggEnfield, SouthgateLab (minister)aye
Mr Bill TynanHamilton SouthLabaye
Rudi VisFinchley and Golders GreenLabaye
Joan WalleyStoke-on-Trent NorthLab (minister)aye
Robert WareingLiverpool, West DerbyLabaye
Dave WattsSt Helens NorthLab (minister)aye
Mr Brian WhiteNorth East Milton KeynesLabaye
Alan WhiteheadSouthampton, TestLabaye
Malcolm WicksCroydon NorthLab (minister)aye
Dr Alan WilliamsCarmarthen East and DinefwrLabaye
Alan WilliamsSwansea WestLabaye
Betty WilliamsConwyLabaye
Michael WillsNorth SwindonLab (minister)aye
David WinnickWalsall NorthLab (minister)aye
Rosie WintertonDoncaster CentralLabaye
Phil WoolasOldham East and SaddleworthLabaye
Mr Tony WorthingtonClydebank and MilngavieLabaye
Mr Jimmy WrayGlasgow BailliestonLabaye
Anthony D WrightGreat YarmouthLabaye
Derek WyattSittingbourne and SheppeyLabaye
Mr Richard AllanSheffield, HallamLDem (front bench)no
Mr Paddy AshdownYeovilLDem (front bench)no
Mrs Jackie BallardTauntonLDemno
Alan BeithBerwick-upon-TweedLDem (front bench)no
Dr Peter BrandIsle of WightLDemno
Menzies CampbellNorth East FifeLDem (front bench)no
Mr Brian CotterWeston-Super-MareLDem (front bench)no
Edward DaveyKingston and SurbitonLDem (front bench)no
Don FosterBathLDem (front bench)no
Donald GorrieEdinburgh WestLDemtellno
Evan HarrisOxford West and AbingdonLDemno
David HeathSomerton and FromeLDem (front bench)no
Simon HughesNorth Southwark and BermondseyLDem (front bench)no
Mr Archy KirkwoodRoxburgh and BerwickshireLDem (front bench)no
Mark OatenWinchesterLDemno
Mr David RendelNewburyLDemno
Bob RussellColchesterLDem (front bench)no
Adrian SandersTorbayLDem (front bench)no
Robert SmithWest Aberdeenshire and KincardineLDem (front bench)no
Andrew StunellHazel GroveLDem (front bench)tellno
Matthew TaylorTruro and St AustellLDem (front bench)no
Dr Jenny TongeRichmond ParkLDemno
Steve WebbNorthavonLDem (front bench)no
Phil WillisHarrogate and KnaresboroughLDem (front bench)no
Mr Dafydd WigleyCaernarfonPCno
Alasdair MorganGalloway and Upper NithsdaleSNPno
Martin SmythBelfast SouthUUPno

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