Terrorism Bill — Expiry and revival (No. 2) — 15 Mar 2000

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 8-- Expiry and revival (No. 2) --

When lasting peace is established in Northern Ireland there will continue to be a need for permanent anti-terrorist legislation.

He went on to argue--we will come to this in later amendments--that new legislation should apply not just to violence related to Northern Ireland but to terrorism throughout the United Kingdom, covering domestic as well as international terrorism.

once lasting peace has been established in Northern Ireland, there will continue to be a need for permanent counter-terrorist legislation to deal with the threat of international and domestic terrorism.

From my interviews with the police, the Security Service and other counter-terrorism specialists in the UK and overseas, I am convinced it would be a mistake--indeed, that it would be folly--to assume that a few years of relative freedom from acts of international terrorism here meant that the threat had largely gone away. There are two reasons for that view.

First, to measure the threat merely in terms of the number of planned attacks which have been carried out in the UK would be to ignore the substantial effort which goes on, largely in secret, to avert such incidents. Evidence which I have seen and heard, though I cannot set it out here, persuades me that, although the immediate threat is low, international terrorist groups continue to seek opportunities to carry out attacks against UK interests, at home and abroad.

The second cause for caution is that developments in world politics and the changing nature of terrorism have made it difficult to predict what the future holds. Chapter 4 of Professor Wilkinson's report deals with some of these factors. Regional and national conflicts which have generated terrorism, or have the potential to do so, will continue throughout the foreseeable future. The complex problems in the Middle East and North Africa will remain the most important factor, not least because of the pronounced anti-Western position adopted by some of the parties involved. As the "weapon of the weak" terrorism is likely to remain an attractive option to those engaged in regional power struggles, facilitated by the ever-increasing international freedom of movement of people, goods and information. The UK, together with some other Western countries, is particularly liable to be caught up in these struggles because of the number of communities of foreign nationals who live, or seek sanctuary, here.

the Government believes that there exists now a clear and present terrorist threat to the UK from a number of fronts and that a terrorist threat is likely to continue to exist for the foreseeable future even when a lasting peace in Northern Ireland is achieved.

Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

(2) All persons wishing to consult a solicitor must be permitted to do so as soon as is reasonably practicable.'.-- [Mr. McNamara.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 173, in clause 40, page 18, line 34, at end insert--

It is of paramount importance for the rights of the defence that an accused has access to a lawyer at the initial stages of police interrogation.

The Government intends to retain the arrest powers of the PTA which entitle the police to arrest without warrant anyone who they have reasonable grounds for suspecting. Liberty has long been concerned about the existence and operation of this power and considers that it should not be retained for the following reasons:

it is unnecessary: there is no evidence that the PACE powers of arrest are inadequate.

it is too wide: it permits a police officer to arrest where the person is not suspected of committing any offence . . .

powers have been used in the past simply as an intelligence gathering device.

These points are particularly important in view of the widened definition of terrorism.

In England and Wales, whether a person is arrested under PACE or under the PTA, he has the right to consult a solicitor and to have the solicitor present during interview. He is also entitled to have someone he knows informed of his arrest. These rights may be delayed on the authority of a superintendent if he reasonably believes that such communications might be detrimental to the investigation for one or more specified reasons. The maximum period during which a detainee may be held incommunicado corresponds with the length of time for which he may be detained without further authority. Thus, in non-terrorist cases the rights of access may be delayed up to 36 hours whereas a terrorist suspect may be held incommunicado for up to 48 hours. Furthermore, in terrorist cases an officer of Assistant Chief Constable rank or above may order that consultations with a solicitor are to take place within the sight and hearing of a uniformed officer of at least the rank of inspector.

as soon as is reasonably practicable.

The person named must be . . . a friend of the detained person . . . a relative, or . . . a person who is known to the detained person who is likely to take an interest in his welfare.

What if none of those categories applies? For example, people from abroad might have no one in those categories in this country. Much abuse is being heaped on beggars at the moment. If they were taken into a police station under these powers, they might have nobody in those categories available.

Where a detained person is transferred from one police station to another, he shall be entitled to exercise the right . . . in respect of the police station to which he is transferred.

consult a solicitor as soon as is reasonably practicable, privately and at any time.

a detained person . . . may consult a solicitor only in the sight and hearing of a qualified officer.

an officer of at least the rank of superintendent may authorise a delay.

the reason shall be recorded as soon as is reasonably practicable.

in the absence of a further authorisation under sub-paragraph (1).

shall be promptly informed of their right to consult privately with a solicitor and to have a solicitor present at all interviews to be conducted under this Act.

as soon as is reasonably practicable

as soon as is reasonably practicable.

Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

(2) The Secretary of State may by order provide--

(a) that a provision of this Act which is in force (whether or not by virtue of this subsection) shall continue in force for a specific period not exceeding five years;

(b) that a provision of this Act shall cease to have effect;

(c) that a provision of this Act which is not in force (whether or not by virtue of this subsection) shall come into force and remain in force for a specified period not exceeding five years.

(3) An order under subsection (2) shall be made by statutory instrument; and no such order shall be made unless a draft of the statutory instrument containing the order has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.'.-- [Mr. Simon Hughes.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Motion made, and Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--

The House divided: Ayes 47, Noes 281.

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All Votes Cast - sorted by party

MPs for which their vote in this division differed from the majority vote of their party are marked in red. Also shows which MPs were ministers at the time of this vote. You can also see every eligible MP including those who did not vote in this division.

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NameConstituencyPartyVote
Douglas HoggSleaford and North HykehamConaye
Peter RobinsonBelfast EastDUPno
Mr Martin BellTattonIndependentaye
Paul FlynnNewport WestLabaye
Dr Jim MarshallLeicester SouthLabaye
John Martin McDonnellHayes and HarlingtonLab (minister)aye
Mr Kevin McNamaraKingston upon Hull NorthLabaye
Alan SimpsonNottingham SouthLabaye
Ms Audrey WisePrestonLabaye
Nick AingerCarmarthen West and South PembrokeshireLabno
Bob AinsworthCoventry North EastLab (minister)no
Douglas AlexanderPaisley SouthLabno
Graham AllenNottingham NorthLab (minister)tellno
Mr Donald AndersonSwansea EastLab (minister)no
Janet AndersonRossendale and DarwenLab (minister)no
Hilary ArmstrongNorth West DurhamLab (minister)no
Mr Joe AshtonBassetlawLabno
Charlotte AtkinsStaffordshire MoorlandsLabno
John AustinErith and ThamesmeadLabno
Mr Tony BanksWest HamLab (minister)no
Mr Harry BarnesNorth East DerbyshireLabno
John BattleLeeds WestLab (minister)no
Mr Nigel BeardBexleyheath and CrayfordLabno
Margaret BeckettDerby SouthLab (minister)no
Anne BeggAberdeen SouthLab (minister)no
Hilary BennLeeds CentralLab (minister)no
Mr Andrew BennettDenton and ReddishLabno
Joe BentonBootleLabno
Mr Gerry BerminghamSt Helens SouthLabno
Roger BerryKingswoodLabno
Mr Harold BestLeeds North WestLabno
Clive BettsSheffield, AttercliffeLab (minister)no
Liz BlackmanErewashLabno
Hazel BlearsSalfordLabno
Bob BlizzardWaveneyLabno
Mr Paul BoatengBrent SouthLab (minister)no
David BorrowSouth RibbleLabno
Mr Keith BradleyManchester, WithingtonLab (minister)no
Ben BradshawExeterLab (minister)no
Des BrowneKilmarnock and LoudounLabno
Richard BurdenBirmingham, NorthfieldLabno
Colin BurgonElmetLabno
Mrs Christine ButlerCastle PointLabno
Stephen ByersNorth TynesideLab (minister)no
Alan CampbellTynemouthLab (minister)no
Mrs Anne CampbellCambridgeLabno
Ronnie CampbellBlyth ValleyLab (minister)no
Mr Dale Campbell-SavoursWorkingtonLab (minister)no
Mr Jamie CannIpswichLabno
Mr Ivor CaplinHoveLabno
Mr Roger CasaleWimbledonLabno
Ian CawseyBrigg and GooleLabno
Ben ChapmanWirral SouthLabno
David ChaytorBury NorthLabno
Michael ClaphamBarnsley West and PenistoneLabno
Ms Helen ClarkPeterboroughLabno
Dr Lynda ClarkEdinburgh PentlandsLab (minister)no
Paul ClarkGillinghamLabno
Charles ClarkeNorwich SouthLab (minister)no
David ClellandTyne BridgeLab (minister)no
Ann ClwydCynon ValleyLab (minister)no
Vernon CoakerGedlingLabno
Ann CoffeyStockportLab (minister)no
Harry CohenLeyton and WansteadLabno
Mr Tony ColmanPutneyLabno
Michael ConnartyFalkirk EastLab (minister)no
Frank CookStockton NorthLabno
Yvette CooperPontefract and CastlefordLab (minister)no
Ms Jean CorstonBristol EastLabno
Jim CousinsNewcastle upon Tyne CentralLabno
Professor Ross CranstonDudley NorthLab (minister)no
David CrausbyBolton North EastLab (minister)no
Ann CryerKeighleyLabno
John CryerHornchurchLab (minister)no
John CummingsEasingtonLabno
Jim CunninghamCoventry SouthLab (minister)no
Claire Curtis-ThomasCrosbyLabno
Mr Keith DarvillUpminsterLabno
Mrs Valerie DaveyBristol WestLabno
Mr Denzil DaviesLlanelliLabno
Geraint DaviesCroydon CentralLab (minister)no
Mr Hilton DawsonLancaster and WyreLabno
Jim DowdLewisham WestLab (minister)no
David DrewStroudLab (minister)no
Ms Julia DrownSouth SwindonLabno
Gwyneth DunwoodyCrewe and NantwichLabno
Angela EagleWallaseyLab (minister)no
Maria EagleLiverpool, GarstonLabno
Mr Huw EdwardsMonmouthLabno
Jeff EnnisBarnsley East and MexboroughLabno
Mark FisherStoke-on-Trent CentralLabno
Jim FitzpatrickPoplar and Canning TownLabno
Caroline FlintDon ValleyLabno
Mr Derek FosterBishop AucklandLab (minister)no
Michael FosterWorcesterLabno
Michael Jabez FosterHastings and RyeLabno
Mike GapesIlford SouthLab (minister)no
Barry GardinerBrent NorthLab (minister)no
Bruce GeorgeWalsall SouthLabno
Neil GerrardWalthamstowLabno
Ian GibsonNorwich NorthLabno
Linda GilroyPlymouth, SuttonLabno
Dr Norman GodmanGreenock and InverclydeLabno
Roger GodsiffBirmingham, Sparkbrook and Small HeathLabno
Paul GogginsWythenshawe and Sale EastLabno
Mrs Llin GoldingNewcastle-under-LymeLab (minister)no
Mrs Eileen GordonRomfordLabno
Ms Jane GriffithsReading EastLabno
Nigel GriffithsEdinburgh SouthLabno
Mr Win GriffithsBridgendLabno
Mr Bruce GrocottTelfordLabno
John GroganSelbyLab (minister)no
Mr John GunnellMorley and RothwellLabno
Mike HallWeaver ValeLab (minister)no
Patrick HallBedfordLabno
Fabian HamiltonLeeds North EastLab (minister)no
David HansonDelynLab (minister)no
Harriet HarmanCamberwell and PeckhamLab (minister)no
Sylvia HealHalesowen and Rowley Regiswhilst Labno
John HealeyWentworthLabno
Stephen HepburnJarrowLab (minister)no
John HeppellNottingham EastLabno
Keith HillStreathamLab (minister)no
Mr David HinchliffeWakefieldLabno
Margaret HodgeBarkingLab (minister)no
Phil HopeCorbyLabno
Mr Alan HowarthNewport EastLab (minister)no
Kim HowellsPontypriddLab (minister)no
Lindsay HoyleChorleyLab (minister)no
Beverley HughesStretford and UrmstonLab (minister)no
Mr Kevin HughesDoncaster NorthLab (minister)no
Mr Alan HurstBraintreeLabno
John HuttonBarrow and FurnessLab (minister)no
Brian IddonBolton South EastLabno
Eric IllsleyBarnsley CentralLabno
Adam IngramEast KilbrideLab (minister)no
Mrs Helen JacksonSheffield, HillsboroughLabno
Mr David JamiesonPlymouth, DevonportLab (minister)no
Brian JenkinsTamworthLabno
Alan JohnsonKingston upon Hull West and HessleLab (minister)no
Miss Melanie JohnsonWelwyn HatfieldLab (minister)no
Mr Barry JonesAlyn and DeesideLabno
Fiona JonesNewarkLabno
Helen JonesWarrington NorthLab (minister)no
Mr Jon Owen JonesCardiff CentralLabno
Lynne JonesBirmingham, Selly OakLabno
Martyn JonesClwyd SouthLabno
Tessa JowellDulwich and West NorwoodLab (minister)no
Sally KeebleNorthampton NorthLabno
Alan KeenFeltham and HestonLabno
Fraser KempHoughton and Washington EastLabno
Jane KennedyLiverpool, WavertreeLab (minister)no
Piara S KhabraEaling, SouthallLabno
David KidneyStaffordLabno
Peter KilfoyleLiverpool, WaltonLabno
Ashok KumarMiddlesbrough South and East ClevelandLabno
Bob LaxtonDerby NorthLabno
David LepperBrighton, PavilionLabno
Chris LeslieShipleyLabno
Tom LevittHigh PeakLabno
Ivan LewisBury SouthLabno
Martin LintonBatterseaLabno
Mr David LockWyre ForestLab (minister)no
Andrew LoveEdmontonLab (minister)no
Andrew MacKinlayThurrockLabno
Fiona MactaggartSloughLabno
Mrs Alice MahonHalifaxLabno
Judy MallaberAmber ValleyLabno
Gordon MarsdenBlackpool SouthLab (minister)no
Mr Paul MarsdenShrewsbury and AtchamLabno
Robert Marshall-AndrewsMedwayLabno
Mr John MaxtonGlasgow CathcartLab (minister)no
Thomas McAvoyGlasgow RutherglenLab (minister)no
Steve McCabeBirmingham, Hall GreenLab (minister)no
Ian McCartneyMakerfieldLab (minister)no
Siobhain McDonaghMitcham and MordenLabno
John McFallDumbartonLab (minister)no
Anne McGuireStirlingLab (minister)tellno
Shona McIsaacCleethorpesLabno
Mr Tony McWalterHemel HempsteadLabno
Mr John McWilliamBlaydonLabno
Michael MeacherOldham West and RoytonLab (minister)no
Alan MealeMansfieldLab (minister)no
Gillian MerronLincolnLabno
Andrew MillerEllesmere Port and NestonLabno
Austin MitchellGreat GrimsbyLab (minister)no
Laura MoffattCrawleyLabno
Dr Lewis MoonieKirkcaldyLab (minister)no
Margaret MoranLuton SouthLabno
Julie MorganCardiff NorthLabno
Elliot MorleyScunthorpeLab (minister)no
Ms Estelle MorrisBirmingham, YardleyLab (minister)no
Sir John MorrisAberavonLabno
Kali MountfordColne ValleyLabno
Denis MurphyWansbeckLabno
Paul MurphyTorfaenLab (minister)no
Doug NaysmithBristol North WestLabno
Mr Bill O'BrienNormantonLabno
Mike O'BrienNorth WarwickshireLab (minister)no
Edward O'HaraKnowsley SouthLabno
Mr Martin O'NeillOchilLab (minister)no
Bill OlnerNuneatonLabno
Mrs Diana OrganForest of DeanLabno
Ian PearsonDudley SouthLabno
Mr Tom PendryStalybridge and HydeLabno
Mr Colin PickthallWest LancashireLabno
Mr Peter PikeBurnleyLabno
James PlaskittWarwick and LeamingtonLabno
Mr Kerry PollardSt AlbansLabno
Mr Chris PondGraveshamLabno
Greg PopeHyndburnLab (minister)no
Steve PoundEaling NorthLab (minister)no
Bridget PrenticeLewisham EastLabno
Gwyn ProsserDoverLabno
Ken PurchaseWolverhampton North EastLabno
Ms Joyce QuinGateshead East and Washington WestLab (minister)no
Mr Lawrie QuinnScarborough and WhitbyLabno
Mr Giles RadiceNorth DurhamLab (minister)no
Bill RammellHarlowLabno
Mr Syd RapsonPortsmouth NorthLabno
Andy ReedLoughboroughLabno
Mrs Barbara RocheHornsey and Wood GreenLab (minister)no
Mr Allan RogersRhonddaLabno
Mr Jeff RookerBirmingham, Perry BarrLab (minister)no
Terry RooneyBradford NorthLabno
Mr Ernie RossDundee WestLabno
Mr Ted RowlandsMerthyr Tydfil and RhymneyLab (minister)no
Chris RuaneVale of ClwydLab (minister)no
Christine RussellCity of ChesterLabno
Joan RyanEnfield NorthLabno
Martin SalterReading WestLabno
Mr Phil SawfordKetteringLabno
Mr Brian SedgemoreHackney South and ShoreditchLabno
Jonathan R ShawChatham and AylesfordLabno
Ms Debra ShipleyStourbridgeLabno
Clare ShortBirmingham, LadywoodLab (minister)no
Marsha SinghBradford WestLabno
Dennis SkinnerBolsoverLab (minister)no
Andrew SmithOxford EastLab (minister)no
Angela SmithBasildonLabno
Geraldine SmithMorecambe and LunesdaleLabno
Jacqui SmithRedditchLab (minister)no
John SmithVale of GlamorganLabno
Mr Llew SmithBlaenau GwentLabno
Mr Peter SnapeWest Bromwich EastLabno
Helen SouthworthWarrington SouthLabno
Rachel SquireDunfermline WestLabno
Phyllis StarkeyMilton Keynes South WestLabno
Mr Gerry SteinbergCity of DurhamLabno
Mr David StewartInverness East, Nairn and LochaberLabno
Mr Paul StinchcombeWellingboroughLabno
Howard StoateDartfordLabno
Gavin StrangEdinburgh East and MusselburghLabno
Jack StrawBlackburnLab (minister)no
Graham StringerManchester, BlackleyLab (minister)no
Gisela StuartBirmingham, EdgbastonLab (minister)no
Gerry SutcliffeBradford SouthLab (minister)no
Mrs Ann TaylorDewsburyLab (minister)no
Dari TaylorStockton SouthLabno
David TaylorNorth West LeicestershireLabno
Gareth ThomasHarrow WestLabno
Stephen TimmsEast HamLab (minister)no
Paddy TippingSherwoodLab (minister)no
Mark ToddSouth DerbyshireLabno
Don TouhigIslwynLab (minister)no
Jon TrickettHemsworthLabno
Mr Dennis TurnerWolverhampton South EastLab (minister)no
Desmond TurnerBrighton, KemptownLabno
Neil TurnerWiganLabno
Stephen TwiggEnfield, SouthgateLab (minister)no
Mr Bill TynanHamilton SouthLabno
Claire WardWatfordLabno
Dave WattsSt Helens NorthLab (minister)no
Mr Brian WhiteNorth East Milton KeynesLabno
Dr Alan WilliamsCarmarthen East and DinefwrLabno
Alan WilliamsSwansea WestLabno
Betty WilliamsConwyLabno
David WinnickWalsall NorthLab (minister)no
Rosie WintertonDoncaster CentralLabno
Mike WoodBatley and SpenLabno
Phil WoolasOldham East and SaddleworthLabno
Mr Tony WorthingtonClydebank and MilngavieLabno
Anthony D WrightGreat YarmouthLabno
Derek WyattSittingbourne and SheppeyLabno
Mr Richard AllanSheffield, HallamLDem (front bench)aye
Mr Paddy AshdownYeovilLDemaye
Norman BakerLewesLDem (front bench)aye
Mrs Jackie BallardTauntonLDemaye
Alan BeithBerwick-upon-TweedLDem (front bench)aye
Tom BrakeCarshalton and WallingtonLDem (front bench)tellaye
Colin BreedSouth East CornwallLDemaye
Malcolm BruceGordonLDem (front bench)aye
Mr John BurnettTorridge and West DevonLDemaye
Paul BurstowSutton and CheamLDem (front bench)aye
Menzies CampbellNorth East FifeLDem (front bench)aye
Mr David ChidgeyEastleighLDem (front bench)aye
Mr Brian CotterWeston-Super-MareLDem (front bench)aye
Edward DaveyKingston and SurbitonLDem (front bench)aye
Mr Ronnie FearnSouthportLDem (front bench)aye
Don FosterBathLDem (front bench)aye
Andrew GeorgeSt IvesLDem (front bench)aye
Mike HancockPortsmouth SouthLDem (front bench)aye
Evan HarrisOxford West and AbingdonLDemaye
David HeathSomerton and FromeLDem (front bench)aye
Simon HughesNorth Southwark and BermondseyLDem (front bench)aye
Charles KennedyRoss, Skye and Inverness WestLDem (front bench)aye
Mr Richard LivseyBrecon and RadnorshireLDem (front bench)aye
Mr Robert MaclennanCaithness, Sutherland and Easter RossLDemaye
Mrs Ray MichieArgyll and ButeLDemaye
Michael MooreTweeddale, Ettrick and LauderdaleLDem (front bench)aye
Mark OatenWinchesterLDemaye
Mr David RendelNewburyLDemaye
Bob RussellColchesterLDem (front bench)tellaye
Adrian SandersTorbayLDem (front bench)aye
Robert SmithWest Aberdeenshire and KincardineLDem (front bench)aye
Andrew StunellHazel GroveLDem (front bench)aye
Matthew TaylorTruro and St AustellLDemaye
Dr Jenny TongeRichmond ParkLDemaye
Mr Paul TylerNorth CornwallLDem (front bench)aye
Jim WallaceOrkney and ShetlandLDemaye
Steve WebbNorthavonLDem (front bench)aye
Phil WillisHarrogate and KnaresboroughLDem (front bench)aye
Elfyn LlwydMeirionnydd Nant ConwyPC (front bench)aye
Mr Simon ThomasCeredigionPCaye
Alasdair MorganGalloway and Upper NithsdaleSNPaye
Jeffrey M. DonaldsonLagan ValleyUUP (front bench)no
Mr Clifford ForsytheSouth AntrimUUPno
Mr Ken MaginnisFermanagh and South TyroneUUPno
Mr William RossEast LondonderryUUPno
Martin SmythBelfast SouthUUPno
John TaylorStrangfordUUPno
Mr William ThompsonWest TyroneUUPno

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